Real Beauty: Dear Nina

This week on Real Beauty, i'm joined by Nina Badzin, host of Dear Nina: conversations about friendship, for a conversation about something we don't talk enough about: adult frienships. 

Why do friendships shift as we grow? why can motherhood change our circles? and why does being left out as an adult still sting like it did when we were younger? 

an honest conversation about navigating motherhood relationships, dynamics and learning not to measure your worth by who includes you. Sometimes real beauty is found in relationships that stay - and the ones we outgrow. 

Reach out to me @francenejdavidson, enjoy!

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to Real Beauty with FD, the podcast where we talk about beauty in its most honest form. Not just what we see in the mirror, but what we live, feel, carry, and grow through. I'm Francine Davidson, and here to talk openly about motherhood, womanhood, relationships, fertility, confidence, the messy, beautiful in between. This is a space for real conversations, shared experiences, and reminding ourselves that beauty isn't perfection. Whether you're navigating change, healing, becoming, or just figuring it out as you go along, you're not alone here. Welcome to this week's episode. I wanna start as we have done with the weekly reset. Just a few honest moments from the past week, something that filled me up, something that felt heavy, and one thing I'm carrying forward. Something that filled me up. This last week, our baby girl, who, just turned eight, so I don't... do I have to stop calling her baby? But she completed her drama performance that she has been working on for months now, and she played Cinderella, so one of the characters, and just did awesome. She had a number of lines. She had practiced a lot. And just seeing her confidence standing up in front of her peers and an audience, she just did so well. And not just that, but also the other evening, she competed in a talent show at school, each of the kids had to audition to get through to the talent show. So Luna and one of her friends made up a dance to Zoo from Zootopia 2, and oh my God, it was so cute. They practiced so damn much and took it so seriously. They had matching outfits, and just seeing her on stage and just knowing how much she enjoyed it just filled me up beyond words, and I hope she continues to have this performing bug'cause I just think it's amazing, so that made me really happy. Something that I've been carrying forward So nearly a month ago, I went and got my first microneedling treatment at a med spa in Houston called Skin Day Spa. So highly recommend if you're looking to get Botox, filler, microneedling. They have other treatments that you can get there, but it is an amazing place, and I've been going to them for, oh my gosh, nine years, which is crazy. But anyway, so first time doing microneedling, it was, like, not sore at all, which firstly I was pretty shocked at. Secondly, I was shocked at how quickly the redness disappeared. I thought I would be like Samantha Jones from Sex and the City and just have a crazy red face for a week, but it healed so quickly. There was a number of peptides that were added into the microneedling serum, and I immediately saw results like two days later. And my skin has continued just to glow. My pores have been reduced. I feel like my skin has got tighter. It just looks so much healthier. And from someone going through postpartum, it is hard to get that glow back into your skin. Now, what I'm not prepared to talk about is the freaking postpartum hair loss, which has sucked. And I forgot how bad it was, and all I'm thinking about is just my hair was so thin before. I'm like,"Where is all this hair coming from that's falling out? I have been trying rosemary oil, which someone told me makes a huge difference with hair growth, and also just getting the kind of shine back into it as I've noticed my hair is pretty dull recently. So yeah, joys of having a kid, right? What I was also going to mention, and I guess this kind of ties into a little bit of a recommendation, but from the microneedling, I was advised to use Light therapy, and specifically red light therapy. So I already had a mask at home that, to be honest, I've had for, I don't know, five-plus years. I've used it sporadically. I've for sure had no consistency, but this last month, I have been religious in using it every single day for 15 minutes in the morning. Now, my mask isn't just red light. I also have blue and yellow light. So the research I've done on this and obviously do your own research and see kinda what's best for you and your skin, but I've been alternating between these lights, and some days I've been, it, if I have time, I might do red in the morning and then do yellow in the afternoon. So let me just kinda explain what I found out about this. So red light is typically used for collagen production, reducing the look of inflammation and really, it's used more commonly for skin texture, glow, and recovery. So that's why you typically see more red light being advertised and used. So blue light is usually associated with more helping targeted acne more kinda bacteria on the skin, so it's also popular for breakouts and oily skin. So that's kinda why I've been alternating it. Not so much on the acne side but more on the oily side. And then yellow light is more commonly used for calming the skin, so more used for redness, sensitive skin, and circulation support. So yeah, it has made an added difference to my skin also. I think consistency makes more of a difference here versus, I see people kinda using it once a week. I just don't think that's enough. I truly think you should be doing it several times a week in order to truly get the benefits from it. So anyway, that is something that, something that I will be carrying forward. Now, on to something heavy. Lately, and really has been, like, a number of months, I feel I've been navigating some anxiety, and it's taken me a while to even call it that. Of course, at first I blamed postpartum hormones, lack of sleep, all the obvious things. But the truth is, when I've really kinda looked closer I realized that this feeling had been building up for a while, and even prior to having Brie. So that's kinda why, it's so easy to kinda look at it postpartum, and it's the obvious choice to blame. But for me, I noticed that it kinda shows up in certain situations. And just to kinda describe it as it's taken a lot of kinda Googling to be like,"What is this feeling, and why am I feeling it? What are the times that I'm feeling it?" Certain situations. But for me, it's I just get this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I become so narrow focused, and it's like suddenly I can't think positively or clearly. I a million percent question myself, overthink it, and it just feels, in that moment, beyond consuming. So what's helped the most is actually saying out loud talking to my husband. I've reached out to a couple of friends who I know, struggle from anxiety and, they've kinda spoken openly about it over the years, which helped me reach out to them as a resource. And then also acknowledging what I'm feeling instead of pretending I'm just fine or brushing it off as I said, just being kinda overly tired or, naming another reason for it. I'm also learning that identifying triggers matter. Sometimes protecting your peace means creating distance from situations that have repeatedly left me feeling, unsettled or as I described. So I'm sharing this because anxiety doesn't always look obvious. I'm a pretty positive person, and it takes a lot for me to, change my emotions or feel a certain way. But, because of that, I feel like it's made me acknowledge it even more, as it's just so the opposite of how I would normally feel. So even though people are showing up, they're doing all the things, you might quietly be feeling like your mind is working against you. So if that's you I know you're not the only one carrying it silently, but, I recommend you reach out to a friend speak to your partner. Go really look into this and, there's obviously a lot of help and support out there, and that is something that I'm currently looking into to see what is truly best for me. But anyway, that is something heavy that I just wanted to bring up and acknowledge. So the last piece before we get into the episode is the edit. So a few things I've been reaching for, watching, or loving lately. So one of the things and this is pretty fresh to be honest, I just finished reading, or I guess listening,'cause I listen to so many audiobooks, but a book by Liv Constantine called Don't Open Your Eyes. I literally just finished it today after binging it within three days, and it was so good. It's like one of those books that, I use the term can't put down, I know I'm listening to it, so I guess you can't stop listening. But it is just filled with so many twists, turns, different characters or way-- weaving through each of the stories. And it was just not what I expected, and I did not read anything about it. It was recommended by someone in my book group, and I was in between books and immediately, downloaded it and started listening to it without any preconceived understanding of what it would be about. And it just was awesome. So I don't wanna give anything away, but I highly recommend that. And then secondly, I just watched Saltburn the other day. And yes, I know, I am so late to the party, years late. And I remember seeing so many posts on social media there was so much hype about it. But it was not what I expected. It blew my mind in certain scenes, to be honest. There were components that I was like,"What the hell is going on?" But it was very clever and, this is the same director and writer of, Wuthering Heights, and Promising Young Woman, which is also an incredible movie. If you haven't already seen that, I highly recommend watching it. But anyway, I don't know if I'd recommend Saltburn I'm unsure. Watch it if you're curious. And if you like it, tell me, and then I will take credit. If you don't, it is not a true recommendation. Let's go into this episode with Dear Nina, and this is a conversation all about friendship. Nina has been writing about adult friendship since 2014, long before it became a mainstream topic. What started as personal reflection evolved into a nationally recognized platform. Through her podcast, and this is actually how I found out about Nina, she explores the complexity of women's friendships, the joy, the heartbreak, the misunderstandings, the loyalty, and the evolution that comes with every season of life. Her work has been featured in major outlets, including The Wall Street Journal, NPR, and Time, and her podcast has grown into one of the top shows dedicated specifically to friendship on Dear Nina. So I highly recommend going to check out her podcast. I was dying to have this conversation with her due to what I have recognized over the last, five-plus years navigating friendships, especially motherhood friendship, friendships, and creating that balance between you're immediately thrusted into this environment where what you have in common is your kids, and then developing a relationship or a friendship kinda later on in life. And then, oh gosh, just so many complexities just within that realm. And then you add on, maintaining your previous relationships and friendships and, I'm sure we've all been in a position where, relationships kinda die out, and how do you deal with that? How do you acknowledge that? Was that a chapter in your life? Do you continue to put in the work? I feel there's just so much complexity within the friendship space that is just not spoken enough about. So I was really pumped to speak to Nina, and trust me, I wanted to talk about everything. So I tried to cram in as much as I could, but like I said, I recommend listening to her podcast. She has covered so many subjects. It has helped me greatly as I navigate this, space. And also it has helped structure how I have certain conversations with my daughter. And even that I didn't fully appreciate that I would be talking about certain dynamics to an eight-year-old, and the things that she is observing with her friendships and, how she is striving to be a good friend. And, our kids are constantly watching us. They're constantly listening to us. So even that piece I am beyond mindful of how I speak openly about what a good friend is, how we treat one another, how we act towards one another, how we are creating space and time for one another, whether it's one-on-one or in a group setting. Even how you are dealing with conflict within a friendship. I am beyond mindful of how I am setting that tone to my daughter and acknowledging when I make mistakes. So anyway, this is a space that I'm very passionate about, but I continue to learn and seek advice, hence this conversation with Nina. So I hope you enjoy, nina, I've been dying to speak to you. You are a writer, speaker, host of the podcast, dear Nina, conversations about friendships. I know you have been talking about adult friendships, writing about it for a number of years, and you just mentioned that you hit your four year anniversary on your podcast, so congratulations. Thank you. So tell me what was the reason for starting this, creating this space? Alright, that's a good question, but I'm going to keep my answer really short because I'm gonna tell you, I've been a guest on a lot of podcasts. I have a lot of guests on my podcast and I find that. Listeners actually aren't as interested in that answer as you might think. They really just wanna get down to like the juicy friendship stuff and like why I write about it, they probably don't care. But I am a writer and it is important to note actually, for your listeners, and I'm not a therapist, I'm not a social worker, I am a writer and I've written about all kinds of things over the years, parenting and. I had an advice column about baby names. At one point I had an advice column for writers, for other writers about how to use Twitter way back in 2010, like the early Twitter days. And that advice voice really speaks to me. But the parenting column I had for a couple years and it wasn't really. How to or anything. I have four kids I should mention, that are quite a bit older than your kids at this point while we're recording. They're 21, 19, 16, and 14. Oh my gosh. And two boys, two girls. So I've seen it all. I've done it all in terms of the parenting stuff. I was writing about parenting when they were little, but again, not a how to, I'm not a pediatrician, not a therapist. Yeah, all that. It was really more personal essays. I'm really more of a creative nonfiction writer, and I loved having those essays published and I love that kind of writing more like memoir type of stuff. But as the kids got a little bigger, I really didn't want to be writing about the kids or even indirectly, I just, it's like I didn't wanna do that. So at around that time. Somebody I knew through the writing world was starting a website that was really focused on female friendship and they wanted a friendship advice columnist. I'd had essays out there about friendship just'cause it's a huge topic of mine. Before I was a nonfiction writer, I had tried to write a novel that I almost got an agent with that was all about a friendship breakup. And so I've been writing about friendship. Forever, like my entire adult life. And when she wanted to have me as the advice columnist, like as a paid columnist, I was like, I don't know. I'm not a therapist. I felt funny about it. Yeah. And she was like, no, we'll just make that. It's clear we'll make that. The thing is here is just a regular person, which I am, who is weirdly obsessed with this topic, which I am, and that was way back in 2014. So I have been writing about friendship for well over a decade, and I have probably covered. Every little cotton pick and minutia part of friendship you can imagine. And so I like to talk about it and people like to talk to me about it. Oh my gosh, I love it. You must be the go-to person in your friend group. I think I am. It's call Nina. Yes, exactly. And that's why I call my stuff dear Nina.'cause people still write anonymous letters. And I use that in my newsletter on substack@dearnina.substack.com. And I use it on the podcast and then yes, people will. Ask me stuff, but then sometimes they feel self-conscious about it.'cause they're like, I wanna ask you a friendship advice question. You're probably sick of talking about this. I'm like, no, I like to help my real friends too. You're like, no, I love this. Yes. So I guess all the conversations that you have had, what has surprised you the most about women and friendships? I think what is the most surprising is how. Universal, ageless and timeless at all is, it doesn't matter if I'm hearing from a teenager, although teenagers don't find them their way to me that often. I do occasionally get a letter from a high school person or a college student whether it is a young mom or a single person, somebody who's. Retiring somebody a lot. I do hear from a lot of empty nesters who find themselves, this is a good topic to discuss, who find themselves. They come up for air if they're parents, or even if they're not parents, if they even really focused on work and they've retired and now they're like. I have all this time, and they haven't been putting time into their friendship. So I hear from people that age, people who moved to a new city. I hear from people in their seventies or eighties who are like, I still can't get a seat at the mage table. There's, I've moved to this new community and nobody will let me in. And so it is ageless, timeless, all of these things. And it's, I wouldn't say that's surprising. I expected that, but maybe 10 years ago it was surprising to me. Now it's not surprising. Do you find now compared to, 10 plus years ago, that women are more honest about friendship struggles now and talking about it more? I think so. But I also wonder if, I'm just so mired in it that I am not even like a good person to ask because people send me so many articles all the time. Yeah, all the time. It does seem not just friendship, but the topic of social connection has really blown up in the past decade since I first started writing about it, and. Really it's every two seconds. It feels like there's a big book coming out. Adam Grant has a book coming out about social connections and there's every person who hasn't even normally written about that is writing about that. I just interviewed for my podcast. It won't be live until later in March. Andrew McCarthy, the actor from Pretty and Pink and Mannequin. He has a book about male friendship coming out. Scott Galloway was not on my podcast, but just wrote a book about male friendship. So even that side of things Oh yeah. Is starting and it's very common knowledge now that the key to longevity is not just your physical health, but they say there's longest study ever done on human behavior. At Harvard, they know that social connections are the number one predictor of how well, basically a person. I'm gonna say that again. How basically a person is going to live into long age.'cause you could live a long time, but do you, is your memory sharp? Are you agile? Yeah. You able to move around. Your social connections are hugely tied to those outcomes. Oh, a hundred percent. Like for me and I speak about this with my friends all the time, and I think me and my kind of girlfriend group. And I've spoken to a number of friends just prior to this podcast just to kinda see how they kinda navigate that friendship and, social interaction. For me, I don't like having just one group. I like having a mixture of groups where you can do different things with, but you're getting pieces at different times, and it's not like you're putting all of your eggs into one basket. Now what's interesting is I see. Some other friends who they're like no, this is my squad. This is it. And then you start I don't know, I'd be interested in your thoughts on. The whole social media element to it where like for me, if I'm fleeting between kind of different groups, you then sometimes get comments on, oh, you didn't invite me to X. Why didn't you invite me to that? And I saw you posted a picture. And I'm like, darn it. Why did I post that picture? But do you see like a lot of those types of comments coming forward now? It People are very sensitive. Yeah. I was gonna be like, don't post the picture. I think, no, I do all the time and I'm like, why? I'm torn on that between posting. I don't post because I'm extra sensitive about it because I write about friendship and yeah, I just really never post pictures of my real friends. Plus, I'm very active on Instagram and I feel like my real life friends didn't necessarily sign up to have 14,000 people see their picture or something. Yeah, fair. That isn't what they asked for. So I'm. Different than a regular person. But yeah, I hear a lot about people who feel bad that something's been posted. And then on the flip side, I can also argue that really what we all need to do is toughen up a little bit. Yeah. And acknowledge that we're not going to be invited to everything. That's actually what I really think. Yeah. I really think that the best thing we can do for our kids and ourselves is to accept that not being invited to something is actually not a crisis. And as long, if you can just not at all accept. If you can accept that we couldn't possibly invite everyone to everything and that we like to do things well, if you like to do things with just a few people, let's say you have to give that to other people. You have to give other people room to do things without you, you can but both ways. Yes. I honestly, I couldn't agree anymore. And I think like prior to having kids, I always thought my kind of friendship levels were, very similar. And then you. I kinda get like your mom friends, and that's where I've seen the majority of some of those comments on, Hey, I saw you were doing like X the other day, but I wasn't invited. Or you had this play date and like you didn't invite my kid. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like I'm constantly trying to tell my daughter. You should give your friends that quality time, that one-on-one time. But then you also gotta give yourself to the group of friends, and then you gotta make sure you're not just tied to that one group. And I appreciate, it's hard to explain that to a 7-year-old, but I'm like, I want her to be able to navigate and be able to appreciate that you can have a deep friendship with this one person, but they can also have a friendship with someone else. Yes, there's, it's not just. Yeah. I'm like, there's so much good stuff here. A couple things I wanna comment on. Number one, going back to what you said about having different friends within different groups, I think that's great. If I could give one piece of advice to everyone, it is not to put all your eggs in that one basket. And it's more it's easier to illustrate for kids because you can say you have your friends from gymnastics. Yeah. And you have your friends from school. Yeah. And you have your friends from maybe church or something else. And it's actually wonderful. And important that they have these different outlets because let me tell you for sure, something's gonna blow up with the gymnastics girls. Yeah. And you're gonna be like, oh, don't worry. Good job. You have your school, you have your school friends. Yeah. This other group, you have your church friends, you have your Girl Scout friends, or you know what other things. And a lot of times we. Push the kids, in this one area. And we're so relieved when they have a group, oh, thank God they have a group in school. I would not count on that group. Never count on that group. Yeah, it's not a good idea. So the other thing I wanted to comment on you said is talking to your daughter or other people, listeners, talking to your kids, the best thing we can do, I've said this comment already on this show, is not to act like it's a crisis when you're not included. So when your kid gets in the car after school and says. I'm sad because I saw that, was getting in car and they're having a play date. One of the best things you can do is not make a big deal. It's when the parents are like oh my gosh. And then they wanna text the mom and be like why would you pick them up at school? That's not nice. Really. You're gonna make these parents go out of their way to have this secret play date. No, it's totally appropriate that they pick the kid up at school. That's where the kids are. And the appropriate thing is to say to your kid, Hey, remember when you hung out with? This kid by yourself a week ago. That's what these kids are doing. Yeah. They sometimes wanna just do stuff. The two of them, just like you, to do stuff with one friend and they still like you and you still like the friend that you didn't hang out with last time. No, I think that is awesome advice. And just your comment on, the mom being like, Hey, I'm gonna text that person and be like, Hey, why did you make it so obvious? What advice would you give to people kinda navigating that scenario? Because I am very much on your wavelength of, Hey, we should be able to do this. That does not affect other friendships. And I want to teach my daughter that, but at the same time. As a mom and in a mom group, you're then trying to navigate. Your own relationships. Yes. Yes. So what advice would you have there? Oh, I have so much advice. I saw something recently, I wish, I know who posted it to give them credit, but it was about when to get involved and when not to get involved as a parent. And I have found this anecdotally to be true my life, but she said it from a more like clinical, she said it from a more clinical point, which is if it's something that, let's say it was a workplace that you would go to HR for, then maybe you get involved with the mom. So we're talking. Bullying. Yeah. Or talking things that are happening, in school or even outta school that are really on the borderline of verbally abusive or ruining a reputation or things like that. Okay. Now it's time to get involved. If you're talking about the subtle ways people get along, if you were work and. Somebody didn't say hi to you that nicely every day when you were getting lunch. What are you gonna talk? You're gonna complain to the boss or to hr. That's crazy. You can't dictate how well, how much people like you or not. Yeah. And so I try to, I think that was an interesting way to think about getting involved. On the parenting level, we really cannot force closeness. You can't force good chemistry. You can't force good vibes between people. So if it's something like a birthday party. I would say in the second grade, yeah. We're inviting all the girls in the class. Yeah. But a random Saturday night sleepover I think is outrageous to expect that one parent is gonna host 17 girls. Yes. Yeah, there's sometimes there's going to be plans that don't include everybody. A big piece of advice I have for if you are friends and your kids are friends. It's important to establish that your friendship is separate from the kids' friendship and you might even have to say those words. I think the sooner the better. Like even, the kids are little and your family friends and the kids still like getting together. As, I hate when I say like a lot and you're gonna have to edit a lot of those out. I'll start that over though. Even when the kids are little and you have dinner plans with other families, a barbecue on a Sunday and the kids get along and they grew up together, there's going to be a time. Inevitably where the kids don't wanna come over anymore necessarily. Yeah.'cause they're not really friends at school and it's oh, do we have to go to the Davidson's house because Yeah. Yeah. We're, I don't really like that one anymore. And at some point you're going to have to say to your friend, Hey, I think it's time we get together, just the adults. Yeah. You can make a couple excuses the first few times. It's easier to do that if earlier in the kids' friendships, you look your friend dead in the eyes and say, it's so nice. The kids are friends. They may not always be. Yeah let's just acknowledge that and have a laugh about it, and it's easier said than done, but the earlier you and your friend can acknowledge that your friendship is separate from the kid's friendship, the better. Now, it may not always be separate from the kids' friendship. There are situations where you are friends because the kids are friends, and that's okay. There's a place for that kind of friend. But if this is a friend that's important to you, you were friends before the kids were born, or you met because of the kids and you really connected on a deep level. I think it's great to look at that friend and say, let's just acknowledge that probably one day these kids are gonna grow car. Yeah. They're just gonna come day. We're in it. We're in it to win it. That is really good advice.'cause I think, and my daughter's in second grade and we've met so many amazing families through her. But I think to your point, realistically, there's gonna come a time where their groups are gonna change. And, these people means so much to us that I think you. You have to have those discussions. But so often what I see is the parents will navigate the relationships through the kids. Yep. So if the kids aren't speaking, I've noticed this where, you know whatever reason and you know they have ridiculous fallouts and it's silly things'cause they're so little. And then you're like, wait, was that parent giving me a cold children? I'm like, what is happening right now? Like, why does that happen as an adult? Yes. People do that. People are reliving. Their childhood and adolescent trauma. Yes. It's like they really are. Yes. It's like high. I see a lot of similarities with how some of the parents act as if we're back in high school and I'm like, man, can I unsubscribe to this? Can we just be like normal? Yeah. Instead of acknowledging that kids are gonna act like kids and teenagers are gonna act like teenagers, people have bad days. Sometimes people aren't gonna be nice to your kid. And yeah, you can't punish the parent. I shared something today on Instagram. Sorry to keep bringing up Instagram, but that's where a lot of fun stuff happens. No, I love, sorry, there was a great quote that said. The minute you say, oh, my kid would never, or I would never like basically watch out. These are my words now. Yeah. A week later you have now upset the karma machine. Trust me, your kid will. Yeah. Everybody is so smug and self-righteous when their kid is left out. Oh, my kid would never really, yeah. Call me in five years when your kid wants to make their own decisions about their own friendships, and trust me, you will be on both sides of it. Yeah, and it's good to actually have a little grace for the parent of the kid. Who maybe is leaving your kid out, because by the way, your kid may have done something to upset them. Maybe your kid is always on their phone. I, and again, your kids are so young, so Yeah, it's, I'm coming from a teenage point of view, but I've seen that before where kids come here, they don't get off their phone. Yeah. Guess what? My kids doesn't wanna hang up so much. Don't anymore. You don't wanna know. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. So is my kid a bully because they didn't invite your kid who does not look up from their phone for two seconds? No, but I can see how it might look that way. Yeah. Yeah. We all, we never know. We never know what our kid's up to and sometimes they're just not good chemistry. No, it's true. If your kid didn't do anything, doesn't, I don't mean to think that the kid always said something. Sometimes there isn't. The chemistry's not there and you cannot force it. And I say a lot. People don't love when I say it, but it's true that the parents who get overly involved year after year are the ones who wake up, eight years later and don't understand why their kid isn't included in some major event. Big Halloween party, sophomore year of high school or homecoming, junior year of high school. And you're like, wait, why is my kid not invited? I thought they were friends with that group. No, they really weren't. You have been. Courting favors from the other moms all these years. Yeah. All these years. You were like my kid has nothing to do for, Valentine's Day party. Can you get them invited? Yeah. Invite them. That is robbing the kid of the chance to actually figure out where they belong, who they feel good around. Yeah, I love that. I feel like that resonates a lot. The other question I have from like a situation, and I'm sure it's not just me that has been in this situation but I had it where two of my like really best friends, to be honest, they fell out a couple of years ago. Were all in the same mom group and they don't get on and naturally it's caused, friction. There was me sitting, being Switzerland, trying to be friends with both, which I've realized is also not the best way of navigating that, but how, what advice would you give to people who, they're in that kind of mom group, there's been a falling out. How do you navigate that without causing issues to the kids or even just to your own relationships? That's the worst. That is so hard. I actually think you did the right thing. I don't know The alternative. The alternative would be to drop one of the mom's. Yeah. And I never would. I was like, no, there's no way. And I can't pick a side. You can't. Like I see it from both sides, but at the same time I'm like, I have a relationship with both and I keep that separate. I think I would have to say to the two moms, if they make it uncomfortable Hey guys, we're all gonna still hang out and you choose whether to come or not. But we're just asking, and maybe you speak on behalf of everyone, we're just asking that you don't make it uncomfortable for everyone else. Yeah. One of them may choose to not come. Actually, like the person who feels the most put out may decide not to come, but don't let the whole group go down with the ship. It's Right. I don't even have great advice for that because it's a very tricky situation and in an ideal world, those two moms would work it out. Yeah. But they're not your kids. Like you don't wanna have to get involved and be like, Hey girls, work it out. Yeah. I think there's a difference when I. I look back and I honestly think over the last couple of years and going through that situation, I look back at how I was at school and I think there's a difference when you're navigating a fallout with your friends at school and you're like no. We can work this out. We can discuss it. Everything's a little bit more, I would say black and white versus when you're an adult there's so much more gray. There's your, and not that I'm saying you don't have this as a kid, but. You have your own interpretation of how you feel you're being treated, and whether that's the truth or not the truth. You still are building that up in your head. So true. And then you have all the other elements being an adult, being a mom, being a parent, working all the stuff. Yeah. That I think it's so much harder to bring them, those individuals and be like, Hey, why did this happen? Can we just work through it? I feel like some things are just. It's a chapter. It's a chapter of life that it sucks, but at the same time, it. I don't know. It opens up doors for other relationships, if that makes sense. This is where it's good. You have more than one group for your situation. Yeah. The story, for and for other people. That's why we advise other people. It's best to not just rely on one group'cause stuff like this happens. That's, it's a great example.'cause even if you yourself didn't have some sort of issue with one of the women, and not just you Francine, but you listener. This kind of stuff happens in a group and you're like, Ugh, who needs it then? Then you go hang out with your other friends for a while. Let them work it out. Yeah, it's true. And then it's going back to your other point, which I really need to stop, like just posting on social media to be honest.'cause I always feel like it gets me in trouble, but in the back of my mind I'm like, why shouldn't we be posting stuff? Why shouldn't we be happy doing certain things? But. I always find you're gonna make someone feel hurt because they weren't invited, they weren't involved. So how, what advice do you have to navigate that for others like me? Outside of just don't post a picture. That's okay. I guess that's, there's options. One option is to never post a picture, and I understand why most people don't like that advice because it makes you feel like a prisoner. Yeah. I'm like, why? To other's? Yes. Other people's insecurities, right? Yes. Like you are now a prisoner to their insecurities, and so I absolutely understand and even support the idea of being like, you know what, no, people need to toughen up a little bit like we talked about earlier, and accept that they're not going to be invited to everything. Then there's the other option of posting it, and then you have to accept that people are going to be upset. I don't see any other way. It's either don't post or post it and just know that people are gonna be upset.'cause you can't control other people's feelings. Yeah. Unless you're going to post it and then quickly text everyone who wasn't invited to just say, Hey, this is something that we could only have four people. You're not gonna do that. No, that's not realistic. So it's either don't post or it is. Post and gurg your loins that people are gonna be mad at you. That's true. And I also think you, especially when you have kids, you need to get to a point where. Like you mentioned at the beginning, there's gonna be times you're not invited to something. That's fine. You don't know the reasons why that was the case. You don't even know the context of those two were sitting at dance and they decided they're gonna go to cinema tomorrow night. That's right. No one else is part of it. That is fine. That is going to happen whether it's at work, personal relationships, mom, friends, and to me, I accept that and I always know there's a rationale behind it. So when I see something online, I'm like, I love that y'all went out. That looked so fun. Tell me how it was. Because I'm always hopeful that if you have that type of genuine reaction, the reaction will come back as well. You know what I mean? That's beautiful. And also it never does, but it's my logic. You are coming from, and it's great. You are coming from a very secure, they call it secure attachment, like that you don't have anxiety around being left out. Yeah. So if for someone like you. I'm mostly the same way, but every once in a while I have to self-talk myself out of when I hear people are doing stuff without me, I do have to have that moment of, yeah, okay, Nina, practice what you preach. People don't wanna always have 12, especially when we're talking couples. Or families even more so if you invite. One more family that might be five more. Oh, it's a lot. Human beings. It's a lot. Yeah. If it's another couple even, it's okay, now we're at a bigger table and it's hard to hear and it's like we can't even, let's say you wanted to go out with one other couple and you really wanted to actually talk to the other spouses. Once you add a third couple, certainly a fourth couple. Now it's. Speaking of men and women, like if that's what we're talking about, now we were at basically two separate events. That's what happens. It's diluted and you may Yeah. You never talk to the people on the other side of the table. So there's reasons to keep things smaller and we just, like we were saying, we just have to remember that. But yeah, you're coming from a very secure place and we can't control other people's anxiety. That's what's hard to remember. If. Whether to post or not. That's our, like I said, I don't post, but I also don't like to tell people that they absolutely can't. Those get tricky with kids, I always beg my kids not to. Yeah. They all have like secret accounts, every kid, not just my, you really, you can't control that either. So the best thing we parents can do is to tell your kid. People still like you, people can do stuff without you and still like you. Yeah. It's build their confidence, build them to be secure like you are. Build them up so that they can see pictures of their friends together and not see it like we kept saying Yeah, question as a crisis. I had another, I had to itched my nose, but, so we're gonna edit this out. But another thing to say about, oh yeah, you have your coffee in that. One other point and piece of advice about when you see pictures of people hanging out, online videos, whatever, and whether you are a mom, a teen, whoever you are, is to use that as inspiration. You saw that four people got together and did the fun pottery class or did some sort of painting thing, and you're kinda like, oh, I wanna do that. You get on the phone, you find out probably not even the phone. You probably can get online and find out when is that place open? Yeah. When do they have openings? And you invite three people to do it. Yeah. I love that. Use it as inspiration, and it's not about sticking it in the eye of the person who posted it. Maybe you even invite that person. Yeah. Maybe if you see your friend doing something without you and you're jealous, you say, you know what? When's the last time I reached out to that particular friend? Yeah. So invite that friend plus two other people that you like. Now you can go to the art class and don't wait to be invited. I say this a lot. On my podcast, when you make plans, you have plans. Yeah. When you invite people, you have something to do. Yeah. It's so true. So on that note. What advice dear Nina, what advice would you give for friendships that in the past, how can I describe this? It was more convenience. You're in a big group. You're truly more acquaintances. And then as the groups get smaller and smaller. You just mentioned that point on when was the last time I reached out to that person or they reached out to me? At what point are you able to really look at a friendship and think, we should put in more effort here, or this is maybe run its course? What does that look like? I actually really appreciate the level of friendship that lives in that. Little space, and I don't think we always have to do something about it. That middle space of, I know exactly what you're describing. You described it really well. It's like this really could be something more. But somebody would have to do something. In order for that to be, we would have to walk at least once a month. Yeah. We would have to maybe go out as couples. We would have to do something more to actually get to the next level. We cannot do that with everybody. We just run out of time and sometimes you end up getting closer to that person later. Yeah. Maybe you don't have as much to do with them right now because your lives just don't cross enough and nobody has done enough to move it to the next level. Neither of you. It's not blamed situation. Yeah. Nobody has picked up the phone to be like, let's go for a walk, but. Maybe you have a second or a third child and those kids end up being in the same class, or they end up both being on soccer and you reconnect with this person and it's easier to reconnect and become better friends because you never did some dramatic thing to stop hanging out with them. What I mean is. To let it be okay that it's neither here nor there. We actually don't have to do anything about it. It is that third layer of friendship. I made up the number three, like everybody has different layers in their life, but there is a thing called weak ties. And. We need them. Actually it rounds out our lives when we're looking for a job, when we need to find a doctor who can help with a very specific thing, like something's going on with one of your kids, or you or, and you're like, who has a specialist? Oftentimes it is that outer layer who helps us with that stuff, because the people closest to you, you already know who their connections are. You already know who your best friend's doctor is and that person doesn't, can't help you with this thing, but it's that. Parent from the team that you don't talk to that often, but but you know them enough that you would feel comfortable emailing and being like, we are looking for a specialist in this particular Yeah, like you would feel comfortable enough, like you know them, they're in your outer community and we missed that layer a lot during COVID. That was a layer that fell away immediately. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And think about how dry life was, even though you talked to your closest friends, it's still the, that was a lot of pressure to put on your closest friends. We need that. Middle, what is this thing? Is this, are we acquaintances? Are we friends? My answer is yes. And yes, you're friends, you're not close friends, you're little more than an acquaintance. And I like that layer. That's what makes the place you live a good place to live. Yeah.'cause you know a lot of people, you start to get to know more people. See, this is one, one of the times that I appreciate social media because you were still able to. Connect with those individuals in a nice, easy way. That's, we all scroll most of us, and when you see updates, you're able to go love that. Yes. I hope you're doing well. I'm loving seeing this. Or where did you go last week? But it's low touch that it makes it easy to continue and maintain that relationship because you're still seeing each other, but you're not physically seeing each other. You're not physically contacting. Lemme tell you something, lemme tell you something surprising. It is those people who will be the most supportive of your social media, where you're closest friends probably won't because, yeah, true story. There is something. I know. It's that too. Yeah. There's something awkward. I wish there was a name for it. Maybe some therapist out there has a name for it. It's like we don't like to see our friends' social media. It's like we want to, we wanna see it, but we also don't wanna see it. There's a cringe factor, like I know it. I sometimes am tempted to remove my close friends from my social media because I'm like, I know they're seeing it. Yeah, I know. They're probably rolling their eyes and being like, here's Nina talking about the same thing for 10 years. And I'm almost apologetic that they even have to see it, whereas. The less close friend May has no problem with it. They're like, oh, that's great. Nina's doing this thing and they'll like it, or whatever. That is so true. What is it about that don't, there's gotta be a neighbor's, like some German names of some condition that we, that I honestly don't know. I know it was. That like the more and more I do, like the podcast and over the years. But it is so funny that it's always the individuals that aren't the closest to you, that they're like, and sometimes I get a little bit taken aback if I hear someone not in my inner circle, if you will, saying, oh my God, I listened to your podcast episode, I loved it. I love that you're doing this, and this. And I'm like, oh, like I, I forget it's out there.'cause I'm not necessarily talking about it. In that kinda level, but, and then you're like, wait, why aren't my other friends saying stuff? Why aren't they boring me? Yes I don't, there must be something out there that it's like a makes us not, yes. We like, don't we're like uncomfortable seeing our own friends, that side of them or something. I will tell you, I hear about this a lot. Usually people write to me about it on social media and they. Really, or I'll just see other people posting about it and they say, your friends aren't real friends if they don't like your stuff. And I will get in their comments and be like, that is a dangerous way to judge your friendship. I agree. Don't do it. Oh my God, if I did that, don't I have no friends. No friends. I would've no friends. Same. And I think my friends are real friends. Yeah. Same. And I call them just civilians. Like they're regular people. Yeah. They're just normal citizens of the earth that don't use social media. As a job. Yes. Way. And so they just, same way they use it passively like they're watching Netflix. Yeah. And they don't engage and, stop measuring how your friends are using it, is what I would tell those people. But then they're like, no, you're old. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, okay, call me in 10 years when you have no friends left. No I couldn't agree with you more.'cause I also see some of those videos and I really sit with it thinking, I know that is not the case. This is the other side of social media that the more you see something, the more it sticks in your brain sometimes and you're like no. You need to go back to the rationale. Yeah. That is silly. But I do think, and I would love to research it more, like there is something about social media and like your closest friends, not, especially if you're using it for work. Yeah. It's, you know what I tell people to make them feel better about that. How many times, let's say your friend has a normal job, they're a lawyer or they're a doctor. Do you go into the courtroom and applaud them and go, good job. Every time that you, you're like, I object. Or you're patting them on the back or you're like, how's work today? Tell me everything. No, probably not. You probably say how's work and they give you an answer and then you move on. That's so true. But you also don't wanna be like up in your. Career all the time. It's, I know it's exhausting. That's true. That's true. Yeah. That's actually a good, I think that's a better way of thinking about it to be honest. Okay, so I touched on it. When we were talking earlier, but I wanna bring it up. So I'd mentioned that one of the ways I found out about you online was I fell deep in the little rabbit hole of the Ashley Tinsdale article. And this was the first time that I had seen something about friendship in that. Kind of, celebrity kind of pulp culture. People I'd followed for years. And it was something that I related to that I was like, oh my God, they're talking about friendship. Wait, they have the same issues? What? It blew my mind, but it also allowed me to have more conversations with my girlfriends about it. So I love that piece. But I'm curious on your advice when you're dealing with some of that mean girl. Behavior where it's not just, Hey, me and my girlfriends are going to cinema. We didn't include you because of X, Y, Z. It's you're purposely not being included. There were a few things that went on with that story. There was what you just said, purposely not being included repeatedly. So different. That's a pattern. Yeah, like a pattern, not just once in a while. And then there was another little detail in there that I thought was an important point, which is. In Ashley's case, she felt she was included a lot actually, but she'd always be at the end of the table. Or people wouldn't talk to her really while she was there, or they would mention other plans in front of her. So that was an interesting point. I think something that a lot of people can identify with where, yeah. You are included. And I had a really good episode about this with Dr. Noelle Santorelli because I wanted to talk to her about the same thing. She really specializes in this. Which is relational aggression. And I don't wanna get too much into that'cause I'm not a therapist. She is, yeah. Yeah. But the piece of it that was so relatable that my listeners loved is this little part we're talking about when you are included. You don't actually belong anymore. Yes. You're sitting there thinking about it like wait was I involved in that conversation or Wait, we're talking about going to that person's house and I wasn't involved. And there are all these kind of in jokes and you're sitting there being like, why am I here? What is happening? It happens on group text too, right? So there'll be group texts and you're on the text. So this is different than being excluded. You are on the text, you're part of the chat. No one's kicked you out. There may be a second one. There may not be a second one, but you're in this one and everyone else says something and they respond right away. People say, who wants to go to, you know this park and go on a walk? And everyone's oh, I'm in m and m in, you suggest it and it's crickets. Yeah. That's another good example of you're included, you're on the chat. Because for a lot of people, I'm telling you, ine half the battle is just getting on the chat. Yeah. They wanna be on a chat. They're aware there's a chat, but they're not included in it. Okay. So you're on it, you've made it onto the chat, but you're not really, you don't really belong there. Yeah. And I think the best thing to do is to be more aware. Of the difference between being included and belonging earlier on in this friendship. Yeah. And if you feel that from the beginning, and it doesn't have to be about fault, it doesn't have to even be about labeling. People mean the chemistry just might not be there, and you may have overstayed your welcome. That's a harsh thing to say. I don't like to blame the victim, quote unquote. Yeah, of course. But maybe hints have been coming your direction that you did not want to take because for whatever reason you wanted to be in this group. People do have to take a little responsibility for. Sticking around too long, especially if you're an adult. If you were an adult and for years or even months, you're showing up and stuff, people aren't really talking to you on the group chat. They're really not vibing with your stuff. You're never getting a thumbs up, you're never getting a response. They're just ignoring you. My question for that person would be, why do you keep going? I know. Yeah, I know. And I've seen this, not you. That's on you. Like it is time to turn the page on that group. And I don't care if those were like the quote unquote coolest mom in that school. Who cares? You're not in high school. You may think that the girls are acting like they're the women. You may think that the women are acting like they're in high school, but you are the one who decided to stay. You need to stand up and. Internally make a decision to make other friends and it's gonna take time. I know. Believe me, I know. It is not easy to just overnight make new friends, but you are never going to, if you stick around with people who don't really have the chemistry with you. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think I think it again, just, as I reflect back on the last, like 15 years and I think of the girlfriends I've been like close to, continued to be close to once, who I was close to for, a chapter and then, it changed and, we're still friends, but I. I think it's okay to change as a person and to continue to evolve, and sometimes that means that your friends groups are different. But I've been in that situation where you've been around a group of people and unless you're willing to reflect and think, to your point, do I belong? Does this truly make sense to me or am I even just a simple question of when I walk away from a group of people or like an individual, coffee, chat, whatever it is, I think to myself, did that person like fill me up? Do I feel good about this? Do I have good energy? And don't get me wrong, there's gonna be conversations you have that are more. Deeper, it's harder conversations depending on what's going on in their life, your life together, those tension points you speak through. But I still think when you walk away, you should always feel good. And if you're not and that continues to happen, that's when you need to question. There needs to be a change here. And I think so often people remain because they want to feel included. That's right. They decided that this group means a certain thing. Yeah. Too much. Yeah. And they wanna be in it. I often give very simple advice, which is you should be friends with people you like. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that seems really obvious, but people will write to me and complain about their friends or their group, and they're like, this one did this and this one that and they always do this. And I'm like. Then why are you friends with them? Yeah. Why? Yeah. You're not gonna change them. They're adults. It's time to move on. Yeah, I completely agree. I'm also conscious of the time and trust me. Yeah, my kids will be home. I could ask like a 20 billion more questions than that. Your listener can only take so much. Every listener can only take so much. I'm telling you. But no, I really appreciate your time, your conversation your advice. So I hope everyone will connect with you online. So dear Nina where else can we find your information? Yeah. On Instagram and TikTok. I'm Dear Nina, friendship and both, and the podcast is Dear Nina, conversations about friendship, it's everywhere. And the newsletter is dear nina.substack.com. Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And yeah, I will continue to follow you. I appreciate the information you have out there and like I said, it very, the minute I found you, I was going through your posts and I was like, oh my gosh, I resonate with all of this. And I was like, where has this been when you're trying to navigate? Your own relationships. And now I've found like an area of the internet that I'm like, this is perfect. Oh and I'm so glad we're connected and I love having a young podcast buddy. So Yay. Holding a baby. I love seeing a baby and I am so impressed that she has remained quiet and sleeping this entire time. She's an angel. So yeah. Winning. Yay. Thanks. Ran soon. Thank you so much. But. I really appreciate it. It was fun. Also, your skin is luminous. I like, could not stop looking at it. Seriously. I know you do a lot of beauty stuff too and I'm glad we're connected. It's like nice to get off Instagram and actually connect in real life. So Yeah. Same. Same. Yay. Thank you so much. I will be in touch and yeah.